tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post3643485040798133675..comments2024-03-26T12:56:54.350+00:00Comments on LMS Chairman: Traditional Mass to end at BlackfenLatin Mass Societyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17951084157414901564noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-30557227397312040862014-09-27T20:56:21.804+01:002014-09-27T20:56:21.804+01:00No, it was a genuine question. Are you questioning...No, it was a genuine question. Are you questioning my sincerity? How rude!Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-9179865179422974512014-09-27T20:13:44.055+01:002014-09-27T20:13:44.055+01:00I've no idea what your latest comment is suppo...I've no idea what your latest comment is supposed to mean, but I would ask you, in Christian charity, to stop insulting me with comments such as "you haven't been paying attention" and "can't you read". This is not very presidential, coming from the Chairman of the Latin Mass Society. But don't worry, Joe, I forgive you. Lots of love..... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-80446368036328769512014-09-27T20:03:47.042+01:002014-09-27T20:03:47.042+01:00The good people will use it when it is opportune a...The good people will use it when it is opportune and necessary to do so. Can't you read?<br /><br />No, indeed, SP doesn't say anything the hostility of the priest, so it's lucky people have common sense, isn't it?Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-40368595437165542402014-09-27T19:51:45.581+01:002014-09-27T19:51:45.581+01:00Ah, now we reach the heart of what being a suppose...Ah, now we reach the heart of what being a supposed lover of the Old Mass means. Do the good people of Blackfen use the tool given to them to demand the Old Mass, or when it comes down to it, are they actually not that “bovvered”? Why doesn’t the LMS get behind them, if you’re Outraged of Woodstock? As I suggested in an earlier comment, you’d rather exist in a rarefied wannabe intellectual ghetto, instead of mixing with the hoi-polloi. BTW, I don’t recall any mention in Summorum of whether priests are hostile or otherwise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-86787961710385133032014-09-27T17:08:59.064+01:002014-09-27T17:08:59.064+01:00You really haven't been paying attention. Ther...You really haven't been paying attention. There *was* a stable group, and Fr Fisher *ended* the Mass which they had been attending for many years.<br /><br />I suspect if they need to prepare a formal petition, they will take it to a priest who is not as hostile to the EF as Fr Fisher has proven to be. No one wants Mass celebrated through gritted teeth. That fact, however, doesn't absolve Fr Fisher of wrongdoing.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-21020618112750170162014-09-27T16:22:28.197+01:002014-09-27T16:22:28.197+01:00Yawn..... No , Dr Shaw. If the good folk of Blackf...Yawn..... No , Dr Shaw. If the good folk of Blackfen want the TLM, let them petition for it as SP provides. If the conditions (stabiliter etc) are met, they should get it. If they can't be bothered to do so, they should stop whingeing.and acting as if they were a persecuted minority..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-33376138022193710982014-09-27T14:00:15.421+01:002014-09-27T14:00:15.421+01:00Well, for some reason the law of the Church disagr...Well, for some reason the law of the Church disagrees with you. Under Summorum Pontificum, the laity have a right to ask for the EF, and their pastors are politely commanded to find a way to provide them with one. This has been taken away from them at Blackfen. They can indeed go elsewhere - but it is very unjust to force them to do so.<br /><br />Clearly you aren't a canonist. Even so, read SP for yourself.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-68965882211381997492014-09-27T13:05:28.365+01:002014-09-27T13:05:28.365+01:00Dr Shaw, you are wrong. The people of Blackfen hav...Dr Shaw, you are wrong. The people of Blackfen haven't had their Mass taken away. Unlike Catholics in the Middle East, they can worship freely in Pope Francis' Church - indeed, they have a choice of time-slots in which to do so. If that isn't to their taste, let them join another Church, or make up their own, like the late unlamented Ian Paisley. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-43085148642202961882014-09-22T19:58:09.441+01:002014-09-22T19:58:09.441+01:00Unfortunately, if rumours are to be believed, Pier...Unfortunately, if rumours are to be believed, Piero Marini is to be appointed as Prefect of the CDW.<br /><br />The carnival is just starting....Pétrushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17539025631125425710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-19897441526176361322014-09-22T06:04:31.728+01:002014-09-22T06:04:31.728+01:00@Cathprogrocker. Cramner may be dead but his heres...@Cathprogrocker. Cramner may be dead but his heresy (that belief in the real physical presence of Our Lord in the most Blessed Sacrament is nothing more than superstitious nonsense) is most definitely alive and well. And those who agitated for and introduced communion in the hand illicitly before browbeating Paul VI to permit it, were well aware of this.Gungariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06148025539041279321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-17116461313990804392014-09-21T10:50:40.540+01:002014-09-21T10:50:40.540+01:00Gungarius, don't worry about "Cramnerian ...Gungarius, don't worry about "Cramnerian [sic] practices". He's been dead these 450 years, mate. Let it go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-77205327753826529702014-09-20T17:26:45.568+01:002014-09-20T17:26:45.568+01:00I go regularly to the traditional mass at Blackfen...I go regularly to the traditional mass at Blackfen and have done since it's introduction by Fr Finigan. My son is 19 years old and has served all masses since he was 8 and prefers the Latin mass. My daughter is 14 and attends regularly as well. I am absolutely livid to read some of these posts about it being for older people. I am a Catechist, UCM member and active volunteer in OLOR Blackfen and feel my choice has been taken away from me. One latin mass a week isn't too much to ask for is it? I cannot believe that after 12 years I will have to look for another parish because my choice has been taken away from me without any say.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549316176706835461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-55786789355085186182014-09-20T08:57:00.193+01:002014-09-20T08:57:00.193+01:00I think things have reached the stage where some s...I think things have reached the stage where some sort of official response from the diocese is needed. Whatever the truth or not of the allegations, it appears something happened which caused a congregation of over 100 to fall by over 50% in a week. Given that the Church requires all Catholics to attend Sunday Mass under pain of serious sin, this in itself, if true, is a scandal in the geniune meaning of the word whatever the cause of it.<br /><br />If what is alleged to have happened at the Domine Non Sum Dignus is true, then that is particularly disturbing. Many people go to the EF because rightly or wrongly they are appalled and scandalised at Cramnerian and post Cramnerian practices occuring at Novus Ordo Masses such as communion in the hand, standing for communion, no plate being used at communion to catch fragments, shaking hands at the pax domini, girl altar servers and regular use of extraordinary ministers in non extraordinary situations, none of which were mandated by the council. That they do this is, of course, an implicit rebuke and criticism of the England and Wales heirachy, who have chosen to allow these practices in England and Wales, and could forbid them tomorrow if they wanted to. I think this is what infuriates the heirachy more than anything else. <br /><br />Given that Cramner introduced communion in the hand, among other things, with the intention of undermining "superstitious" belief in the real presence, it is not unthinkable to construe that rejecting communion in the hand, by going to the EF, is an implicit accusation of Heresy against the heirachy. It is therefore, I suspect, seen as a major act of "civil disobedience" against the heirachy by some of them.<br /><br />Therefore that the apparent core of the matter at Blackfen revolves around an alleged attempt to introduce such novus ordo rubrical innovations is very significant indeed, especially because this is not the first time Archbishop Smith has had this attempted under his watch causing scandal which reached the national press, as Mr Thompson reported a few years back http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/3681981/More_on_Cardiffs_cancelled_Latin_Mass/Gungariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06148025539041279321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-60552788756260449432014-09-20T08:45:41.180+01:002014-09-20T08:45:41.180+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Gungariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06148025539041279321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-290493906906947752014-09-20T03:24:23.505+01:002014-09-20T03:24:23.505+01:00Yes, it looks like it was done so that it could si...Yes, it looks like it was done so that it could simply be relied upon later. I remember thinking at the time that it was a very odd comment to make. Reparation. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-12345456311748359752014-09-20T03:19:49.186+01:002014-09-20T03:19:49.186+01:00It is the new priest who by his words and actions ...It is the new priest who by his words and actions unilaterally broke up the true church community, centred around the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. His reported words to the congregation, his announcing that the Blessed Sacrament could be received in the hand just before Holy Communion at the traditional Mass, his ending of all traditional Masses, Benediction, appears to have no excuse. It was clearly planned. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-5939573364017606612014-09-19T21:34:46.197+01:002014-09-19T21:34:46.197+01:00I confess it: yes, I'm baffled. I've no id...I confess it: yes, I'm baffled. I've no idea what this chap is saying. He seems to be torn between attacking the Faithful at Blackfen who've had their Mass taken away, and attacking the LMS, but what for, I really have no idea.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-36955498358070498482014-09-19T20:22:52.587+01:002014-09-19T20:22:52.587+01:00On a slight acquaintance I found Fr Fisher to be g...On a slight acquaintance I found Fr Fisher to be generous of spirit and an all-round good guy; and he has in the past given willingly of his time to the TLM. Instead of inviting him to “explain” his actions as pastor within his own parish, the EF community might usefully consider how the unqualified support of such an individual can (apparently) be lost. I don’t think the LMS welcomed the potential intrusion to their private club represented by the advent of Summorum. The Society’s failure to embrace the democratic spirit and provisions of the motu proprio always threatened to be costly. With an ageing membership and a briefly supportive papacy, this was the original Window of Opportunity. Perhaps the lights are now going out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-57919947457049396092014-09-18T18:11:41.356+01:002014-09-18T18:11:41.356+01:00Savonarola,
"Older Catholics I know who reme...Savonarola,<br /><br />"Older Catholics I know who remember what the old days were like say how overjoyed they were when they could worship God in their own language. It is very condescending of you to say that they did not know any better.<br /><br />And if the language were the ONLY thing that changed in 1965-1970, I would not feel compelled to speak much on the subject. <br /><br />In fact, however, language (I concede the genuine popularity of the vernacular at the time) was very arguably the *least* important change made to the Mass. And Catholics who were dismayed at all of those changes had no choice but to put up with them, or go away. <br /><br />I do think it's absurd to think that Paul VI had any intention of ceding the Holy See's ultimate authority over liturgical books, especially in so important a matter as the translation. And had ICEL not so radically departed from its actual mandate in the 1998 draft, I think the Holy See would have been more than relieved to make its role a mostly pro forma one.<br /><br />At any rate, despite our apparent disagreements, I do want to add that I am pleased that you express support for the availability of the traditional Mass, and I thank you for saying so.Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-36120483224909083452014-09-18T15:55:39.636+01:002014-09-18T15:55:39.636+01:00"The party's over" I think the Pope..."The party's over" I think the Pope was referring to the 1960's and 70's horror show. As for that howling gale, I can only detect a refreshing breeze of Tradition that is slowly blowing away the cobwebs. Dr Shaw has more than adequately detailed the growing Traditional movement on this excellent blog.<br /><br />While the unpleasant flatulence coming the sterile and decaying spirit of Vatican II may be nauseous, it will soon pass.Society of St. Bedehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07013220772308117368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-12205046771057316802014-09-18T08:55:30.797+01:002014-09-18T08:55:30.797+01:00The word for prior review is recognitio. It could ...The word for prior review is recognitio. It could be argued what this means. I do not think it suggests that the CDW has the right simply to override what the bishops have approved, as it did when replacing Comme le prevoit, which was of course authorised in 1969, with Liturgiam authenticam (a long document that says very little about the theory or methodology of translation where the shorter Comme le prevoit has much good sense that any philologist can recognise).<br /><br />You could say that when mass was exclusively in Latin Catholics had no choice then but to accept what was thrust on them. Older Catholics I know who remember what the old days were like say how overjoyed they were when they could worship God in their own language. It is very condescending of you to say that they did not know any better.Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-11999349637473060212014-09-17T21:48:41.812+01:002014-09-17T21:48:41.812+01:00Savonarola,
"By what criteria of translation...Savonarola,<br /><br />"By what criteria of translation is it not accurate?"<br /><br />I believe there are some Church documents that provide such criteria. (Comme Le Prevoit is not one of them. It has no authority.)<br /><br />"Canon law gives authority in such matters to the bishops who approved that translation..."<br /><br />Actually that's not entirely true. Canon 838 reads as follows:<br /><br />1. The supervision (moderatio) of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church which resides in the Apostolic See and, in accord with the law, the diocesan bishop.<br /><br />2. It is for the Apostolic See to order the sacred liturgy of the entire Church (universa ecclesia), to publish (edere) the liturgical books, to review their translations into the vernacular languages and to see that liturgical ordinances<br />are faithfully observed everywhere.<br /><br />3. It pertains to the conferences of bishops to prepare translations of the liturgical books into the vernacular languages, with the appropriate adaptations within the limits defined in the liturgical books themselves, and to publish (edere) them with the prior review by the Holy See.<br /><br />So as you can see, the ultimate authority DOES rest with the Holy See. Preparation and publication of the translations is delegated to the bishops' conferences, but the Holy See must approve them. That is what "prior review" means. And the Holy See found the 1998 deeply lacking, in part due to use of inclusive language, additions of entirely new prayers, etc.<br /><br />"...a whole generation of Catholics brought up on the 1970s version clearly found it a worthy and sacred vehicle for their worship..."<br /><br />A whole generation of Catholics had no choice but to accept what was thrust on them, and a whole generation, with all due respect, really did not know any better. <br /><br />Really, this weak stuff to justify what almost everyone (even most progressives) recognize was supposed to be a temporary translation, one rushed and hobbled by obvious weaknesses. We can do better. MR3 is certainly not perfect - yes, it is somewhat clunky in places - but it very much better reflects the actual meaning of the original Latin prayers. Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-75983931900402854762014-09-17T14:55:17.638+01:002014-09-17T14:55:17.638+01:00You won't get jutice using the deeply flawed S...You won't get jutice using the deeply flawed SP of the liberal modernist Benedict XVI. many of you are so naive - can you not see that the intention has been all along to ensnare traditionalists and then swipe away The Latin Mass - he wanted to hybridise it in the long term. Wake up!<br />The authority for Sacred Tradition in the liturgy comes from Pope St Gregory The Great and Pope St Pius V "Quo Primum". There is a perpetual right this Holy Mass in Latin. All popes accepted this without question until the revolution of Gay Paul VI and his liberal modernist succesoors. This pope now wants to destroy all tradition and especially The Latin Mass - has anyone heard Benedict XV protesting? Of course not: you will never hear it because he had no intention of perpetuating The Latin Rite. he only wanted to exploit it for his eventual hybridised version.LeonGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02778834856947933957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-83967435942314508232014-09-17T12:29:27.267+01:002014-09-17T12:29:27.267+01:00I was refering to some of the wilder comments here...I was refering to some of the wilder comments here and elsewhere not the original post Joseph. <br /><br />I'm also saddened by reports elsewhere of alleged resignations, subscription cancellings, words being had with the PP and congregations halving. <br /><br />If things are not perceived as they should be then the new PP should at first, in charity, get the benefit of the doubt, not immediate taking of umbrage. The possibility of constuctive dialogue once the pp has settled in and got to know people a bit more then comes.<br /><br />Of all the things reported, the alleged halving of the congregation after one just week is the saddest. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies. <br /><br />Gungariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06148025539041279321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-4890918174621427642014-09-17T11:31:50.274+01:002014-09-17T11:31:50.274+01:00Gungarius: these are the facts. What more do you w...Gungarius: these are the facts. What more do you want?<br /><br />The Archbishop's attitude is not in question here - not by me, anyway,Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.com