tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post3727428047579895298..comments2024-03-26T12:56:54.350+00:00Comments on LMS Chairman: Radical trads spoiling it for everyone?Latin Mass Societyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17951084157414901564noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-7713382998932636352014-03-08T15:18:25.659+00:002014-03-08T15:18:25.659+00:00Three quick points.
If you want to see people scr...Three quick points.<br /><br />If you want to see people screeching about any and every attempt to rein in abuses in the OF, just look at Pray Tell blog.<br /><br />If the EF is irrelevant in the FMC case, why was it banned?<br /><br />Saying: 'this policy is only counter-productive because of the sins of the guys on the other side of the argument' does NOT stop the policy being counter-productive.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-48762718148826355242014-03-08T14:59:55.107+00:002014-03-08T14:59:55.107+00:00I want to bring up as a point that even before Bp....I want to bring up as a point that even before Bp. Olson's action parents were pulling students out of Fisher More because they perceived King and others pushing the school into schism; at this time, there are just over twenty students left. I stress: This was not the doing of the bishop but of the parents, parents who we're justified in presuming are traditionalists themselves.<br /><br />But moving on to William Peaden's point — the view "that somehow the Mass itself is the cause of theological problems" is the frame that Rorate Coeli and aligned blogs put it in, not necessarily Bp. Olson's. +Olson's actions become more comprehensible if the Latin Mass is being used as an instrument of advancing schismatic views. Think of it as the difference between a gun, purposely built as a weapon, and a baseball bat, created as a tool for a game but misused as a weapon. You do the same thing with the OF: you make it the cause rather than the instrument of progressivist heresy.<br /><br />Bloggers like those at Rorate Coeli go to some lengths to provide examples of liberal liturgical abuse, but as far as I can tell don't do any real follow-through to see if the respective bishops have in fact taken any action. But even where there is action, we may not hear about it because the bishops don't release press statements in these cases, and not everyone goes running to the blogosphere to yell, "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!", when their bishop slaps them down for misusing the liturgy. +Olson's letter, for example, was clearly written as a follow-up to a meeting earlier that day, and not intended for public release or consumption; how many such letters are delivered to priests and churches that misuse the OF we don't know precisely because they're private missives.<br /><br />One final thought: Your argument that Bp, Olson's action is counter-productive because it confirms traditionalist suspicions, it seems to me, indicts those traditionalist who do hold such suspicions. It says to me, "Hard-line traditionalists are under no obligation of Christian charity to give bishops the benefit of the doubt where the Latin Mass is concerned." That may not be what you're trying to say ... in which case, you may want to re-write what you in fact said so the chance of a misinterpretation is lessened.Anthony S. Laynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14807873592896092136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-43645165989155852732014-03-08T14:58:37.577+00:002014-03-08T14:58:37.577+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anthony S. Laynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14807873592896092136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-32483717544031258392014-03-07T09:46:38.654+00:002014-03-07T09:46:38.654+00:00I think the overall point here is not the fine pri...I think the overall point here is not the fine print of the law of UE or whatever else, but this view that somehow the Mass itself is the cause of theological problems. As if it were the Vetus Ordo that caused FMC or anyone else to hold extreme views and that a goodly does of the new Mass would solve the problems. Fact check here, heresy and schism existed long before the there was a new Mass and for the majority of the Church's history there have been heretics and schismatics. It seems quite clear that the problem is not the rite of Mass per se, but the lack of response to the grace in the Mass that leads to heresy and schism. Even supposing the, as yet unproven, gossipy, worst of FMC, its faculty and students, the fact of the matter is, it isn't the Mass that is the problem! William Peadenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14167351950309876642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-58509012174867814972014-03-07T07:56:05.955+00:002014-03-07T07:56:05.955+00:00I love how mild heretics keep trying to paint them...I love how mild heretics keep trying to paint themselves as moderates, the true orthodox, caught between two extremes.<br /><br />It's not extremist to prefer the proper Mass and be honest about the heresy NO inspires, it's called honesty! (All the hypocritical coward "centrists" should try it some time rather than constantly attempting to come off as the adults and instead looking like borderline-heretic fools.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-71226004145743891122014-03-07T01:16:54.685+00:002014-03-07T01:16:54.685+00:00It's not an argument. It is wholly illogical a...It's not an argument. It is wholly illogical and irrational. There can be no justification or authority for a bishop to mandate a substitution of the new Mass for the traditional Mass per se at a parish or chaplaincy. The question of possible matters at a Catholic college for which the local bishop has responsibility is an entirely different matter. The deliberate mixing of two independent matters is very disturbing; it cannot be done in good faith. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-60240571972871357632014-03-06T23:22:20.912+00:002014-03-06T23:22:20.912+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09645767462145465204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-83874825716467505352014-03-06T23:20:27.788+00:002014-03-06T23:20:27.788+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09645767462145465204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-40785009449335744172014-03-06T23:17:11.692+00:002014-03-06T23:17:11.692+00:00On the subject of Universae Ecclesiae, this might ...On the subject of Universae Ecclesiae, this might be helpful:<br />http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/08/important-pced-response-to-two-dubia-about-legitimacy-in-universae-ecclesiae/dcshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18424510747759223459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-68883342095998114202014-03-06T21:58:57.487+00:002014-03-06T21:58:57.487+00:00Whenever people make this claim, I like to ask how...Whenever people make this claim, I like to ask how many traditionalists they have for friends or talk with. Not facebook friends, not internet champ debates, but actual friends you socialize with, invite home for dinner, drinks, etc. <br /><br />The answer is almost ALWAYS zero amongst people who make this claim. It's mainly internet theorycrafting for them. For those of us who actually try to get rid of the reactionaries, we realize the exact opposite approach is required.Kevin Tierneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09772355448244959559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-6721337848803498412014-03-06T21:42:13.528+00:002014-03-06T21:42:13.528+00:00Hello Ryan,
Let's go ahead and say for the sa...Hello Ryan,<br /><br />Let's go ahead and say for the sake of argument that it does apply here - that the college leadership seems to some real degree to "support or belong to groups which show themselves to be against the validity or legitimacy of the Holy Mass or the Sacraments celebrated in the forma ordinaria." Certainly that April 2013 lecture by Dr. Dudley (arguably the most senior and prominent faculty member) seems to fit that bill. <br /><br />If that is the case, however, it raises a far more grave issue about the college, and simply removing the TLM is like slapping a band-aid on a compound fracture. More to the point, it doesn't address options for offering an alternative daily TLM (by an approved priest) in close proximity (such as at St. Mary's) which is in fact what I think a lot of troubled traditionalist commentators have been urging, or asking about, this week. Because right now, any FMC students or staffers, or indeed *any* Catholic in the Fort Worth Diocese, who still want a daily TLM must now trek over diocesan lines to Mater Dei (FSSP) in Dallas, which is the better part of an hour away (sometimes longer) in rush hour traffic. <br /><br />And if you do that, you're taking the TLM off the table as an argument, leaving the focus back on the conduct of the administration. And you're providing a real pastoral response, one which will help to stave off the temptations of "claims of radical discontinuity."Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-64781737578460554892014-03-06T20:46:33.587+00:002014-03-06T20:46:33.587+00:00@Athelstane, we're all speculating as to wheth...@Athelstane, we're all speculating as to whether this was even the bishop's objection (and we're trying, frankly, to retro-fit a rational cause into a seemingly irrational action).<br /><br />However, it's a good question you raise on how UE #19 is violated. It clearly was meant to apply to the SSPX and such, but it seems reasonable to me for a bishop to say it applies here. This is a college-run mass sponsored by a discrete group--the college--which seems to have drifted into ordinary form invalidites. <br /><br />What's the argument for UE #19 to NOT apply here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-8643928798603417182014-03-06T18:39:28.486+00:002014-03-06T18:39:28.486+00:00Another great, incisive column, Dr. Shaw.
Its app...Another great, incisive column, Dr. Shaw.<br /><br />Its apparent to me that there really are serious issues of governance and theology at Fisher More, ones that do require the local ordinary's urgent attention. But it's also apparent to me that the solution imposed by Bishop Olson is likely to do more than harm than good, for the reasons you give.<br /><br />Some have suggested that Pope Francis's chilly attitude toward traditionalists stems from his interaction with the large and boisterous traditional community in Argentina, which is heavily SSPX dominated, in a province where the Society has been unusually dominated by Richard Williamson. But how many traditionalists were driven to such unhealthy precincts because Argentine bishops have for over four decades adamantly refused even the smallest place in the life of the local church to tradition? How much unwitting support have they given to "claims of radical discontinuity?" <br /><br />But then perhaps for some such Church leaders, that's a feature, not a bug: to try to try to discredit tradition by driving it to the margins and thus further radicalize it. If so, however, it's not only profoundly unpastoral, it's revolutionary.Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-88637484403118332642014-03-06T18:29:57.500+00:002014-03-06T18:29:57.500+00:00"I'm assuming a lot of this is directed a..."I'm assuming a lot of this is directed at Mark Shea, and good for you for challenging a blowhard on this."<br /><br />Shea is hardly the only one to make this argument, but he is certainly one of the noisier (and more irrational, alas) ones. <br /><br />"That may have been violated at the college in question."<br /><br />I'm just about prepared to accept that it was, given what I have heard.<br /><br />But Dr. Shaw is right to ask: How many in a given community must hold such views to qualify for such a remedy? Why is the whole punished for the apparent transgressions of some? Are we not kicking the cats to punish the dog?Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-68826115500545733722014-03-06T18:26:53.598+00:002014-03-06T18:26:53.598+00:00We are in a period of profound division and betwee...We are in a period of profound division and between the forces of, what Benedict XVI called “Continuity” and those of progressive Relativism, who seek a “Secularised” Catholicism, in line with the shifting fashions of society. The bulk of the rapidly reducing laity is just carrying on, as they did when a profoundly different liturgy was introduced after Vatican II. <br /><br />Sadly, with the exception of Benedict XVI, I am not sure that recent Popes have appreciated how critical this split has become. The Relativists, were keeping their heads down under Benedict, and are now above the parapet again. They think their time has come, which may well explain the increasing restrictions on the Vetus Ordo.<br /><br />Well, we shall see. We mustn’t forget the Holy Spirit after all? <br /><br />It all hinges on the liturgy. The New Mass, while being valid, downplays the concepts Sacrifice, the Real Presence, and the Ordained Priesthood. That was intentional on the part of the ”liturgists” who designed it. <br /><br />I suspect it will be some time before this is resolved, but in the meantime, those of us who accept the ancient Mass as the True Catholic Mass, the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for the Redemption of Mankind, must continue to also stay well above the parapet, and fearlessly defend the True Catholic Mass of Ages.<br />Jacobihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04743062941733814176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-35690137810074048982014-03-06T16:25:52.768+00:002014-03-06T16:25:52.768+00:00I sincerely hope that bishop Olsen reads this arti...I sincerely hope that bishop Olsen reads this article, nay, even replies to it.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07537123281964278798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-73411504389578443782014-03-06T15:19:34.665+00:002014-03-06T15:19:34.665+00:00Vatican Council II is being interpreted with a fal...Vatican Council II is being interpreted with a false premise which makes the Council a break with Tradition. When the false premise, (of being able to see the dead saved in Heaven who are exceptions to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church, is not used the Council is traditional).The Council would then support the traditional views of the faculty at Fischer More College.<br /><br />However the Vatican Curia is interpreting Vatican Council II with the false premise. They are using the dead man walking and visible theory. So they want the traditionalists to offer the TLM using this irrationality.<br />The Traditionalists need to clarify that there can be a rational and irrational interpretation of Vatican Council II, with or without the irrational premise.<br />Catholic Missionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06025127342963192930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-66262537167752128072014-03-06T15:11:08.501+00:002014-03-06T15:11:08.501+00:00Bishop Michael Olson could be assuming that the TL...Bishop Michael Olson could be assuming that the TLM rejects the New Revelation in Vatican Council II with the visible dead premise <br /><br />http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/03/bishop-michael-olson-could-be-assuming.html#links<br />Catholic Missionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06025127342963192930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-23246852073593674642014-03-06T14:29:38.708+00:002014-03-06T14:29:38.708+00:00As for striving to be above reproach, of course tr...As for striving to be above reproach, of course traditional Catholics individually and as groups should do their best, and the Latin Mass Society has always gone the extra mile in this respect. But what exactly is being asked? That in any congregation there is not a single person whose views might be thought a little over the top?<br /><br />We are in danger here of saying that, to paraphrase Cardinal Kasper, the Eucharist is a reward for the perfect, and forgetting that it is medicine for the sick.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-31522373569555678622014-03-06T13:32:28.192+00:002014-03-06T13:32:28.192+00:00I'm assuming a lot of this is directed at Mark...I'm assuming a lot of this is directed at Mark Shea, and good for you for challenging a blowhard on this.<br /><br />However, he does bring up one key point that might be material (and which the bishop never mentioned, so this may be entirely in Shea's mind): namely, that Universae Ecclesiae says this:<br /><br />19. The faithful who ask for the celebration of the forma extraordinaria must not in any way support or belong to groups which show themselves to be against the validity or legitimacy of the Holy Mass or the Sacraments celebrated in the forma ordinaria or against the Roman Pontiff as Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church.<br /><br />That may have been violated at the college in question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-25471959153626888732014-03-06T12:48:52.861+00:002014-03-06T12:48:52.861+00:00This is an excellent commentary of our status and ...This is an excellent commentary of our status and condition. You illustrate the unfairness and the hypocrisy we witness each day. <br /><br />But this is not news. And just as Jesus spoke of the laborers in the vineyard on Septuagesima Sunday, we should not expect fairness. On the contrary, we should know that we will be held to a standard driven by preconceived negative biases. And we must act accordingly. Continuing to support the fringe that directly challenges authority, or dismisses the validity of the NO, etc. serves only to hurt our cause - and pointing to heretical elements of the opposite fringe is a non-justification.<br /><br />This happens to be realpolitik that we face. Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05396283931580120276noreply@blogger.com