tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post4413709759988357403..comments2024-03-26T12:56:54.350+00:00Comments on LMS Chairman: The English Bishops, the Prayer for the Jews, and bad PRLatin Mass Societyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17951084157414901564noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-73123207753439197542016-03-19T10:45:38.206+00:002016-03-19T10:45:38.206+00:00Very good blog. Regret not knowing of it sooner. P...Very good blog. Regret not knowing of it sooner. Prayerbookman@gmail.comPrayer Book Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00994025321738060778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-59458195144867203432016-03-17T10:12:51.701+00:002016-03-17T10:12:51.701+00:00That would mean the collapse of the idea that the ...That would mean the collapse of the idea that the Novus Ordo is the unimpeachable theological embodiment of the Second Vatican Council. This would be a stunning defeat for the liberals. Remember how Traddies are not allowed to criticise the NO? You think the Bishops are going to start doing it?Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-24069989339128562502016-03-16T21:42:48.159+00:002016-03-16T21:42:48.159+00:00My fear, Dr. Shaw, is that if it really is brought...My fear, Dr. Shaw, is that if it really is brought to their attention that these prayers exist in the Liturgy of the Hours - indeed, one wonders how many British priests even say it regularly - the only action it is likely to provoke is an initiative to purge them from the Office, too. Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-18840756699027034842016-03-15T20:44:15.453+00:002016-03-15T20:44:15.453+00:00What you are missing John is the absolute reluctan...What you are missing John is the absolute reluctance of the bishops to criticise the Novus Ordo. If you show them those prayers from the Liturgy of the Hours, they can no longer say 'it is wrong to pray for the Jews'. They can only say 'that's different, because the Office is less public.' It comes down to perception, not theology. Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-45328974047889336562016-03-15T20:26:14.452+00:002016-03-15T20:26:14.452+00:00'Naturally, we must assume that spokesmen are ...'Naturally, we must assume that spokesmen are being honest and are reasonably well-informed. What this is about, on those assumptions, is presentation, of controlling perceptions, above all by Jews.'<br /><br />The assumption is not really a natural one given the character of the bishops of England and Wales. But let's accept it; or rather let's accept that they are being truthful on this occasion (as I believe) rather than being honest in general. They are not talking about presentation or perceptions but about fidelity to the Second Vatican Council. They are saying that the Council taught that Jews do not need to convert to Christianity and should not be persuaded to do so by Catholics. I am quite sure that they are sincere in saying this; it is part of the general understanding of the Council held by ecclesiastical authorities, and fits into the broader picture of ecumenism and 'new evangelisation'. It fits in to the teaching of John Paul II on evangelisation as well; he held that evangelisation should be directed 'ad gentes', that is to people who do not have any monotheistic religion. No doubt the particular considerations about the dubious history of the Church's relations play a role as well, but they are being used here to promote a broader anti-missionary agenda which its adherents sincerely believe. John Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12689601844788629693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-90766976763939349272016-03-15T20:24:34.545+00:002016-03-15T20:24:34.545+00:00Sorry, that should be 'they are not talking so...Sorry, that should be 'they are not talking solely about presentation or perception', as they mention it; but the perceptions in question are themselves based on an alleged contradiction between the Good Friday prayer and Nostra Aetate.John Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12689601844788629693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-65508910107603021522016-03-15T20:14:49.112+00:002016-03-15T20:14:49.112+00:00'Naturally, we must assume that spokesmen are ...'Naturally, we must assume that spokesmen are being honest and are reasonably well-informed. What this is about, on those assumptions, is presentation, of controlling perceptions, above all by Jews.'<br /><br />The assumption is not really a natural one given the character of the bishops of England and Wales. But let's accept it; or rather let's accept that they are being truthful on this occasion (as I believe) rather than being honest in general. They are not talking about presentation or perceptions but about fidelity to the Second Vatican Council. They are saying that the Council taught that Jews do not need to convert to Christianity and should not be persuaded to do so by Catholics. I am quite sure that they are sincere in saying this; it is part of the general understanding of the Council held by ecclesiastical authorities, and fits into the broader picture of ecumenism and 'new evangelisation'. It fits in to the teaching of John Paul II on evangelisation as well; he held that evangelisation should be directed 'ad gentes', that is to people who do not have any monotheistic religion. No doubt the particular considerations about the dubious history of the Church's relations play a role as well, but they are being used here to promote a broader anti-missionary agenda which its adherents sincerely believe. John Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12689601844788629693noreply@blogger.com