tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post4670674928602486355..comments2024-03-26T12:56:54.350+00:00Comments on LMS Chairman: Fr Longenecker, the Latin Mass, and the magic bulletLatin Mass Societyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17951084157414901564noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-37316533298381057822018-09-03T13:25:29.536+01:002018-09-03T13:25:29.536+01:00"I was brought up in an Evangelical home in P..."I was brought up in an Evangelical home in Pennsylvania. After graduating from the fundamentalist Bob Jones University with a degree in Speech and English, I went to study theology at Oxford University. Eventually I was ordained as an Anglican priest and served as a curate, a school chaplain in Cambridge and a country parson on the Isle of Wight.<br /><br />Realizing that the Anglican Church and I were on divergent paths, in 1995 I and my family were received into the Catholic Church."<br /><br />While his journey to the Catholic Church is laudatory, Longenecker constantly demonstrates that one ought not go to Oxford if one would be able to think profoundly and logically.<br /><br />MEwbankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07408461702621885824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-75819905174345409772016-09-26T13:44:31.304+01:002016-09-26T13:44:31.304+01:00The Latin Mass, we are referring to the Gregorian...The Latin Mass, we are referring to the Gregorian Mass, is the Catholic Mass although Gregory allowed other Masses (and they are yet allowed ), was confirmed as the Western Catholic Mass by St Pius V in Quo Primum in 1570.<br />There has always been dissent in the Church. The Arian crisis is recognised as the greatest although the protestant Lutheran heresy was a close runner up. <br />Some enthusiasts give wrong impressions as Fr Longenecker points out. But there are worse things than that. For instance, the New Mass which I attended this week was surprisingly busy, lots of visiting families from elsewhere with lots of accompanied children, ( first sacraments ) except that I did not see one young person, say 18 – 35 of either sex. That is unusual since there are normally 2 or 3.<br /><br />Conclusions? <br /><br />There is no future for the Church in the New Pauline Mass.<br />The Gregorian Mass is a valuable bullet, but it will now need a salvo of such bullets to put right the mess the Church has got itself into. Jacobihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04743062941733814176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-20240723118598107202016-09-26T02:45:56.097+01:002016-09-26T02:45:56.097+01:00That a legitimate option given by the Church may b...That a legitimate option given by the Church may be insufficient in even the vast, vast majority of cases can be easily demonstrated when you consider that she only commands us to confess our sins and receive communion on an annual basis.Sean W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10085184456489549231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-18453599587810460662016-09-25T18:41:42.437+01:002016-09-25T18:41:42.437+01:00That's a passage by Pius XI that could stand a...That's a passage by Pius XI that could stand a lot more repeating. Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-7265767267382345732016-09-25T17:47:43.463+01:002016-09-25T17:47:43.463+01:00He never should have been ordained. He never should have been ordained. Dymphnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01469622835449220113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-34722338059705610712016-09-25T17:47:35.171+01:002016-09-25T17:47:35.171+01:00He never should have been ordained. He never should have been ordained. Dymphnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01469622835449220113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-65577165737616902862016-09-25T13:41:34.169+01:002016-09-25T13:41:34.169+01:00He's begging the question. (He's assuming ...He's begging the question. (He's assuming that which he must prove.) He writes, "If there are things wrong with the Novus Ordo they are symptoms, not causes." Well, that's kind of what you have to demonstrate isn't it? Your whole thesis is based on something you refuse to even try to prove. But that's the whole crux of the matter. The question is precisely that. <br />Hilary Jane Margaret Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03771332473693479830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-12018173687773423282015-10-14T12:45:25.545+01:002015-10-14T12:45:25.545+01:00It's as if Fr Longenecker does not understand ...It's as if Fr Longenecker does not understand what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is - how it sanctifies, teaches, remedies . . .<br />That it is the source and summit of the Faith. That the outer gestures, words, etc. flow necessarily from the truths of the Faith. Lyndahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06584293537366309430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-43831429715935690572015-10-13T17:24:38.779+01:002015-10-13T17:24:38.779+01:00...no (Church-approved) rite can possibly be objec...<i>...no (Church-approved) rite can possibly be objectively superior to another and that any reverence experienced at Mass has nothing to do with the prayers and rubrics of a particular rite itself...</i><br /><br />I can't tell you how many times I have encountered this attitude in the Church - and mainly from conservatives. (Liberals generally seem to believe that the Pauline Missal is substantially superior, and are not afraid to say so.)<br /><br />It is hard to say how much of this is some sort of unconsciously received Rahnerian thought and how much is just plain ecclesiastical (and papal) positivism - "the Church can do no wrong." But it's there, just the same, and seems to be only slowly coming undone, a process we should not inhibit by making such judgments personal about those Catholics who have not reached that point yet - it is a judgment about the rite, not them. <br /><br />It is sobering to reflect on this. Because if there was a providential lesson in this revolutionary epoch that has been inflicted upon the Church, it has been a very expensive lesson. Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-26331167546887623112015-10-12T22:51:13.322+01:002015-10-12T22:51:13.322+01:00Thank God Dr. Joseph Shaw responded to Fr. Longene...Thank God Dr. Joseph Shaw responded to Fr. Longenecker; I think Fr. Longenecker is a good, solid priest yet when he writes on the liturgy like this he not only deserves this response, he deserves a hose of responses. It's hard to even know where to begin as Fr. Longenecker gets so much wrong<br /><br />Fr. Longenecker writes: "Some traditionalists also seem to think that all the church’s problems would be solved if only we would all return to the Latin Mass everywhere and at all times." Now reword it like this: "Some [conservatives] also seem to think that all the church’s problems would be solved if only we would all return to [good catechesis] everywhere and at all times."<br /><br />Now, I don't know that any conservative would believe "all" the Church's problems would be solved by good catechesis but would it help out a great deal? Absolutely. Would it help solve a number of problems in the Church? Assuredly so (the problem of poor catechesis being one of them).<br /><br />Fr. Longenecker writes: "The reason the Latin Mass seems to be ‘more reverent’ is not because the language is in Latin or because the priest obeys all the rubrics or because he faces East." He also says: "The reason the Novus Ordo so often seems irreverent is not any intrinsic deficit in the Novus Ordo. (otherwise why would Holy Church say that it remains the Ordinary Form of the Mass?)"<br /><br />Setting aside the fact that yes, a Pope (like Paul VI) can make a prudential decision to release an inferior form of Mass, Fr. Longenecker (as Dr. Shaw noted) seems to be making the argument that there is nothing inherent in either form of Mass which makes it more reverent (or less so). This is simply wrong and rather absurd. The entire traditionalist argument for the traditional Latin Mass centers on arguments that the prayers and rubrics of the Gregorian rite are more Chistocentric and centered on the supernatural than the Novus Ordo and this is why you will often find more subjective reverence among parishioners at the TLM than at the Novus Ordo. An objectively superior rite will help instill that sense of reverence in the attendees and an inferior rite will consistently instill the idea that "this is really no big deal". <br /><br />Fr. Longenecker seems to be making the argument that no (Church-approved) rite can possibly be objectively superior to another and that any reverence experienced at Mass has nothing to do with the prayers and rubrics of a particular rite itself but the reverence (or lack thereof) supplied (or not) by the celebrant and attendees themselves. No. Supply an objectively reverent liturgy and celebrate it well and you will start seeing parishioners behave better at Mass and more reverently as it will begin to dawn on them that they really are at a stupendous supernatural event.Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09992011209844007299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-47471516681913025992015-10-12T22:29:08.291+01:002015-10-12T22:29:08.291+01:00"People are instructed in the truths of faith..."People are instructed in the truths of faith, and brought to appreciate the inner joys of religion far more effectually by the annual celebration of our sacred mysteries than by any official pronouncement of the teaching of the Church. Such pronouncements usually reach only a few and the more learned among the faithful; feasts reach them all; the former speak but once, the latter speak every year -- in fact, forever. The church's teaching affects the mind primarily; her feasts affect both mind and heart, and have a salutary effect upon the whole of man's nature. Man is composed of body and soul, and he needs these external festivities so that the sacred rites, in all their beauty and variety, may stimulate him to drink more deeply of the fountain of God's teaching, that he may make it a part of himself, and use it with profit for his spiritual life."<br /><br /> -- Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Quas PrimasMaestroJMChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06552734342224710734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-10440722770873476392015-10-12T05:15:41.213+01:002015-10-12T05:15:41.213+01:00The false ideology argument only works with those ...The false ideology argument only works with those versed in the scholarship of it, while most can only be reached by the liturgy. Fr L misses this.joannishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02313479959447420783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-76331392026580305092015-10-12T00:53:20.268+01:002015-10-12T00:53:20.268+01:00I think the point of the article was clearly that ...<i>I think the point of the article was clearly that liturgy alone cannot be the explanation for the problems in the Church.</i> <br /><br />And I think the point of Joseph's response here is that 1) Fr. Longenecker appears to be at risk of attacking straw men by claiming that traditionalists actually hold this position in significant number; and 2) that there *is* a tendency on Fr. L's part to really diminish the role of the ritual overhaul to a very minor part of the explanation of what has happened.Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-39596254824820112722015-10-12T00:48:14.047+01:002015-10-12T00:48:14.047+01:00While Fr. Longenecker's perspective on this ma...While Fr. Longenecker's perspective on this may have a peculiar matrix of influences - blogging at Patheos (where pretty much all the bloggers have an even more circumscribed view of liturgy, up to Mark Shea's "just show me my lines and blocking"), or simple reaction against some of the more toxic trads who crop up in Patheos comboxes (he has since closed his) - I think the biggest cause is <b>the Novus Ordo itself</b>. With its arrival, the Catholic Church completed its journey from high ritual church to low ritual church. The liturgy itself, with its casual talkiness, endless options, greater focus on the sermon, and minimal rubrics, seems to send the message that the liturgy is not so important - that it is a means to an end, and a means that can vary quite a lot, as you like. In short, it's an exercise in lex orandi, lex credendi. And the fact that western society itself, at least outside the military (which few participate in any more), is increasingly anti-ritual, only reinforces this. <br /><br />Of course, that journey to low ritualism did not begin in 1962, or even 1951. The Roman Rite in practice had in too many places (especially in the Irish dominated Anglophone world) drifted into an increasingly fragmented, privatized piety of Low Mass Culture some distance removed from the Late Middle Ages, something we traditionalists have to be sensitive to in rebuilding tradition. I love the Low Mass, but the normative celebration is supposed to be sung (hopefully well sung), and not just necessarily by the choir only. Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-16347002123065765342015-10-11T15:41:00.676+01:002015-10-11T15:41:00.676+01:00Perhaps I am misreading him, but I think the point...Perhaps I am misreading him, but I think the point of the article was clearly that liturgy alone cannot be the explanation for the problems in the Church. Hence, the title implies that reviving the EF Mass as the ordinary and exclusive rite of the Western Church would have little impact without things like catechesis. The claim he makes over and over in that article is that some traditionalists assume ALL the problems of the Church stem from the liturgy, or that if only liturgical reform could come, then ALL problems would be solved. This does not seem to me to deny any impact from the liturgy; he just thinks modernism is what causes liturgical abuse (at least most often). Finally, I would offer that he believes equally in the dictum lex orandi - he notes explicitly that liturgical problems are symptoms of sickness. What he seems to mean by indicating that the EF need not be more reverent is that having vestments of a particular type or rubrics is not a SUFFICIENT condition for good liturgy. Consider how many abuses happened at various ages in the Church, despite full presence of Latin for hundreds of years. Church history illustrates this point clearly. I am fully in favor of the ancient liturgy, but I agree with Fr. L that the core problem is a false ideology that crept into the Church and, as a symptom, distorts our liturgical practice. StMichaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03396530635424749173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-63163981346369207932015-10-11T15:22:06.512+01:002015-10-11T15:22:06.512+01:00The problem with this journey and patience line of...The problem with this journey and patience line of thinking is that while a person (in this case, Fr. L) gets there, many others will be mislead by him. They may not be so fortunate as him in getting back on the right track.<br /><br />So I think we should only resort to patient inaction IF and ONLY IF there is no other action that we ourselves can carry out. Since writing a reply to him as Dr. Shaw has done is indeed an action we can carry out, I think it must be done. <br /><br />If we neglect what we ourselves can do and just simply resort to "patience", I think that is more appropriately called convenient laziness and will only be rewarded with more bad fruits in the long term.T-C-https://www.blogger.com/profile/08263638091427859851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-31523919364719713472015-10-11T14:25:31.711+01:002015-10-11T14:25:31.711+01:00The only valid conclusion that we can draw from Dw...The only valid conclusion that we can draw from Dwight Longenekers observations is that merely restoring the traditional liturgy and devotions wont automatically fix the problems afflicting the Church. However, I think that if their isn't a restoration we cannot even make a start (let's face it, when you study the Novus Ordo in detail you cannot help concluding that it is giant "V" sign to the Apostolic Tradition).Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07537123281964278798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-33569795938402001992015-10-11T14:15:09.861+01:002015-10-11T14:15:09.861+01:00Great post, but there's a shorter way of expre...Great post, but there's a shorter way of expressing this. <br /><br />Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. The "Spirit of Vatican II" mob knew this, so they changed the Orandi (made the priest turn around so he's the celebrity not Our Lord, moved the priest's chair behind the altar and moved the tabernacle to the side in many churches so we're worshiping the priest, got us to take hold of the Eurcharist standing instead of receive it meekly, so we can cavalierly take God as we wish rather than open ourselve to God's graces, etc), the Credendi naturally changes since humans can't live inconsistently too long, than thus the Vivendi changes. Returning to the pre-Vatican II Orandi won't fix everything (after all, most the pre-Vatican II priests were part of the Humanae Vitae rebellion and "Spirit of Vatican II" innovations), but it would stop the decline and regain some lost ground.<br /> Anil Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06223235205492924930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-52919718352908734482015-10-11T10:40:41.611+01:002015-10-11T10:40:41.611+01:00Joseph, excellent post... but it is clear that Fr ...Joseph, excellent post... but it is clear that Fr L is on a journey (as we all are) and he has not yet arrived where God is clearly leading him to! As you say, "we just have to leave Fr L suspended between the two positions, like a novice trapeze artist". Let's pray that Fr L soon comes to both know and understand the beauty, reverence and truth of the Old Rite. As we know, he is a convert and has been following the guidance of the Holy spirit for a long time now... which has brought him to the beauty of the Catholic Church in the first place.<br /><br />May we all continue to delve deeper into these beautiful mysteries for there is much learning for us all to do! God bless.<br />Sara Harvey-Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13057405059069401942noreply@blogger.com