tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post7166152383707334..comments2024-03-26T12:56:54.350+00:00Comments on LMS Chairman: What sort of Mass did 'Vatican II' want?Latin Mass Societyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17951084157414901564noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-63735499964360377942016-06-14T02:24:21.872+01:002016-06-14T02:24:21.872+01:00Unfortunately that particular claim doesn't ha...Unfortunately that particular claim doesn't have a footnote to a primary source, at least in my copy of her lecture, so Mohrmann's word is all I have.<br /><br />Regarding her primary thesis I agree with you wholly. In the words of Fr Hunwicke, whose short series of posts on Mohrmann introduced me to her, "Forget the idea that when the Roman Church replaced its Greek liturgy with the Latin, it was trying to be more understanded of the people and comprehensible by the man in the street. It was trying to do exactly the opposite. It was trying to be dignified and obscure."Hrodgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11052168727776803292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-25595219404902264642016-06-13T09:51:34.539+01:002016-06-13T09:51:34.539+01:00That is interesting. I'd like to see the evide...That is interesting. I'd like to see the evidence, however, since I've not heard this suggested by anyone else. <br /><br />In any case, as you suggest, it is Mohrmann's most famous thesis that the Latin of the liturgy can hardly be described as a vernacular. It was a hieratic register which took decades of Biblical translations to create. Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-55416976220501114822016-06-13T02:13:51.678+01:002016-06-13T02:13:51.678+01:00I would posit one minor quibble. If Christine Moh...I would posit one minor quibble. If Christine Mohrmann is to be believed, there is at least some precedent for mixing hieratic language and vernacular in the Mass. In her lecture "General Characteristics of Liturgical Latin" (also available as chapter 3 of the book LITURGICAL LATIN: ITS ORIGINS AND CHARACTER), she says "even at the time when the liturgy in the West was still celebrated in Greek, it apparently became customary to translate the second kind of texts [like the Epistle and the Gospel and the Creed] into Latin;" keep in mind that at the time, Latin was the vernacular, though admittedly the Latin used was, as she mentions in the first lecture in the book ("Sacred and Hieratic Languages"), an elevated version and not simply colloquial street slang.Hrodgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11052168727776803292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-40890871606548761222016-05-24T23:43:48.402+01:002016-05-24T23:43:48.402+01:00Nearly everything is, in theory or in practice, al...<i>Nearly everything is, in theory or in practice, allowable, and, from a different angle, objectionable.</i><br /><br />Which underlines the hard reality that the Pauline missal is an unstable rite almost entirely at the mercy of its celebrant (and/or his liturgist). Shifting directives from Rome only emphasize this. The Church is still not ready to face this reality, nor will it be until the last of the generation which oversaw its birth and implementation has passed from the scene. But when it is, the only sure foundation it will be able to find from which to work anew will be, as Dr Shaw says, what the Church has done, "not over a few decades, but over millennia."Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-19566036982371481322016-05-24T18:43:26.496+01:002016-05-24T18:43:26.496+01:00It happened to the liturgy and this was justified ...It happened to the liturgy and this was justified by saying it was only external observance. What is truly terrifying is that the same relativism is now being applied to moral teachings. Is the result going to be a turning away, a crumbling, a confusion of ideas and practices? Sadly, I suspect it is and this time it won't be a confused liturgy, but a coherent body of beliefs, it will be a confused totality. The real issue we should be considering here is what the consequences of the liturgical reforms, can teach us about the likely consequences of the curreant move towards moral ambiguity.Joanna Francescahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129263225442222415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-85224835124357959262016-05-24T18:43:21.740+01:002016-05-24T18:43:21.740+01:00It happened to the liturgy and this was justified ...It happened to the liturgy and this was justified by saying it was only external observance. What is truly terrifying is that the same relativism is now being applied to moral teachings. Is the result going to be a turning away, a crumbling, a confusion of ideas and practices? Sadly, I suspect it is and this time it won't be a confused liturgy, but a coherent body of beliefs, it will be a confused totality. The real issue we should be considering here is what the consequences of the liturgical reforms, can teach us about the likely consequences of the curreant move towards moral ambiguity.Joanna Francescahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129263225442222415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-76037287642845483492016-05-24T16:25:23.130+01:002016-05-24T16:25:23.130+01:00You show convincingly that this is why "no on...You show convincingly that this is why "no one can win." Nearly everything is, in theory or in practice, allowable, and, from a different angle, objectionable. It seems to boil down simply to which "party" is in command and calls the shots. This doesn't seem right -- it certainly isn't the way liturgy has been understood and practiced for most of the Church's history.Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.com