tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post7180874030311060316..comments2024-03-26T12:56:54.350+00:00Comments on LMS Chairman: Trads and Progressives: is the truth in the middle?Latin Mass Societyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17951084157414901564noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-5584598245572646622012-05-15T10:11:40.498+01:002012-05-15T10:11:40.498+01:00"Perhaps this is true for the FSSP, but my in..."Perhaps this is true for the FSSP, but my informant (a vocation director himself) seemed pretty sure of his information."<br /><br />Sorry, I don't understand this. The FSSP is not a marginal exception to the traddy orders. It is by far the biggest, of those in good standing, it probably admits as many young men as all the others put together. Your informant may be sincere but he is just wrong, wrong, wrong. There are many misconceptions about the traditional scene: please don't cling onto them. As it happens with the case I have in mind the information is in the public domain, though I'd rather not shout about it here, there's no need to draw attention to the young man's circumstances.<br /><br />Why not ask them? St Benedict says the postulant must be persistent, not put off by the first perceived difficulty.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-27647139896338845212012-05-14T22:57:22.937+01:002012-05-14T22:57:22.937+01:00No; both of them were Vocation Directors for Relig...No; both of them were Vocation Directors for Religious congregations, sadly here in England I get the impression (and my parish Priest agrees) that even if I were to convince a Bishop to take me, my commitment to Orthodoxy would shortly result in my expulsion from Seminary.Just another mad Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10503510474554718305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-1689884079850828472012-05-14T21:58:36.636+01:002012-05-14T21:58:36.636+01:00May I ask - were these diocesan vocations director...May I ask - were these diocesan vocations directors?Simon Platthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16196039882299400327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-74003439111673041382012-05-13T23:18:24.694+01:002012-05-13T23:18:24.694+01:00Dr Shaw
Perhaps this is true for the FSSP, but m...Dr Shaw <br /><br />Perhaps this is true for the FSSP, but my informant (a vocation director himself) seemed pretty sure of his information.<br /><br />That coupled with my own experience of being on the recieving end of sanctimonious abuse from an 'integrist' VD has left me with something of dislike for Traditional Catholics; sure I love the Old Mass, but dislike many of the lay people who assist at it and the Priests who say it.Just another mad Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10503510474554718305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-88673824905961997602012-05-13T08:50:58.868+01:002012-05-13T08:50:58.868+01:00'Mad Catholic': I know of at least one FSS...'Mad Catholic': I know of at least one FSSP Seminarian whose parents are divorced, so your informant is wrong.<br /><br />Evagrius: 'truth against truth': maybe, but since our salvation does not depend upon right belief on scientific or cultural questions, the asymmetry remains.<br /><br />NB we'll all be called narrowminded for not supporting abortion and infanticide, by the extreme progressives. We can't condemn integrism as a phenomenon, really: we have to address the issues one at a time.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-54097116191852943502012-05-13T04:35:56.745+01:002012-05-13T04:35:56.745+01:00A pity DvH chose the term 'integrist' (as ...A pity DvH chose the term 'integrist' (as you write, "I'm not sure if this is the right word but we need a label, and it'll do") since the French bien-pensants tend to label anyone not a subscriber at Golias an integrist.<br /><br />An excellent post, but I do share Evagrius's apprehension of the "different kind of narrowmindedness"; perhaps because for years now I've lived in parishes that, while not 'embracing Tradition', reject, in their celebration of the usus recentior, all but the least inescapable nonsense (unecessary EMHCs and female altar servers, here on the US West Coast): if I had to endure all of it from the 70s and 80s again I probably wouldn't care if an agent of la Sapinière sat at the back of the church during Mass-- or, more to the point, in the bishop's office.Marc in Eugenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04331547981498637474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-2082170487765567322012-05-13T01:54:30.408+01:002012-05-13T01:54:30.408+01:00"There is no moral equivalence between someon..."There is no moral equivalence between someone who thinks it is not safe to say that NFP, or evolution, or women in trousers, or liturgical innovation, is compatible with the Faith..."<br /><br />Well, indeed, but he who denies evolution is in danger of saying truth can contradict truth; he who opposes women in trousers is in danger of dogmatising modern western cultural mores (or at least, the mores of 1950s America), and he who anathematises liturgical innovation altogether is both speaking nonsense as to the history of the faith, and in danger of putting liturgy before dogma. The Integrist position may be safer, but it is not therefore necessarily safe.<br /><br />"What is the error of someone who holds a narrow view of what is compatible with a doctrine? In a certain, sense, he hasn't got the doctrine right, because he is drawing implications from it which it does not have."<br /><br />Again, yes, but it is also the error of the Pharisees, I fear, in that it places an undue burden on the Faithful which is not of God, and then judges them for failing to live up to their standards (see the comments beneath a recent "Rorate" post on modesty). <br /><br />"The more narrow-minded type of Catholic is on the rise, in the Church, and that is a good thing, because it is evident, to anyone willing to look, that there has been a type of broadmindedness at work for the last two generations which takes away all content from the Faith."<br /><br />Here I must disagree with both premise and conclusion. What has been at work for two generations was not broadmindedness but a different kind of narrowmindedness, I think.<br /><br />But more to the point, the Integrists must not be allowed to set the agenda. First, because we absolutely must learn from the terrible mistake of the Sodalitium Pianum and the mason and modernist scares under Pius X. <br /><br />Second, and more importantly, they will anathematise the past. They are almost always wrong in their conception of Tradition, and in the narrow limits they set on it, and if they area allowed to wrestle domination of the Church, they will surely lead her to folly (and no, relying on Christ's promise an resting on our laurels is not enough - God helps those who help themselves, after all...).<br /><br />Their other effect on the intellectual culture of the Church will be stifling it. Any new discussion or new avenue of research, and potential new tool will be hastily destroyed as suspect and modernist, or masonic, or satanic, because it is not Traditional in the Traditionalist (tm) conception of Tradition.<br /><br />And third, they will drive people away in droves by their impossible attitude.<br /><br />They must be fought, and the battle-lines must be drawn, and drawn clearly. Our battle-cry must be: nec sinistra, nec dextra, sed ubi Petrus.<br /><br />Bella premunt hostilia:<br />Da robur, fer auxilium!.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04611694996611765479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-20516029388477119802012-05-13T00:05:04.482+01:002012-05-13T00:05:04.482+01:00Unfortunately Dr Shaw the rise of the Integrists h...Unfortunately Dr Shaw the rise of the Integrists has had an unfortunate effect on Vocations. <br /><br />Whilst it may be true that Orthodox/Trad congregations and societies tend to have more vocations than the 'progressives' they don't have as many as they should due a mindset that weeds out anyone who comes from a less than perfect background, I've been told that becasue my parents are divorced, the vast majority of VD's will dismiss me out of hand and won't even meet me before they damm me. <br /><br />The Integrist makes the pharassies look like nice guys with bad PRJust another mad Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10503510474554718305noreply@blogger.com