tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post8646303468514002478..comments2024-03-14T06:43:39.590+00:00Comments on LMS Chairman: Reactions to the Filial CorrectionLatin Mass Societyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17951084157414901564noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-24939320109359363052017-09-29T09:30:41.642+01:002017-09-29T09:30:41.642+01:00To say the Church has got some things wrong in the...To say the Church has got some things wrong in the course of its history does not entail anything about accepting or not its authority. The issue here is not about the authority of the Church's teaching on marriage. Pope Francis has made it clear that he fully accepts that, as I do, indeed consider it to be extremely important. The issue is whether in some cases one may question how the rules on communion are to be applied and whether they may be relaxed without the whole moral law collapsing. The Pope thinks they can be and that the resulting ambiguity and messiness are things we just have to live with. Others say it has to be all or nothing. What seems to me also important is whether we can differ here charitably without imputing bad faith, not being truly Catholic etc. to each other.Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-5546239096174740282017-09-29T01:51:40.889+01:002017-09-29T01:51:40.889+01:00"The Church has got many things about God wro..."The Church has got many things about God wrong in the course of its history, and its teaching has been by no means as consistent and uniform as some like to think."<br /><br />If that's your posture, that changes everything.<br /><br />Because we are no longer arguing with someone trying to work from Catholic premises, but from a premise outside the faith. You clearly do not accept the Church's authority to begin with. <br /><br />That's an (apologetic) discussion that is worth having, but it's not the one I think we all thought we were having with you.Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-82478712255038359762017-09-29T01:49:17.996+01:002017-09-29T01:49:17.996+01:00Savonalrola,
The difficulty here is that what you...Savonalrola,<br /><br />The difficulty here is that what you seem to be calling "strict legalism" has, in fact, been the constant teaching and practice of the Church, East and West, for the past 20 centuries. John Paul II did not just make this up in 1981. <br /><br />If the Church could get such a fundamental thing so badly wrong, for so long, how can we trust its teaching on anything else? Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-34864017178871884632017-09-27T17:58:14.624+01:002017-09-27T17:58:14.624+01:00Good for you for drawing attention to Bergoglio...Good for you for drawing attention to Bergoglio's heresies. But what will you do when he ignores the 'correction'? He ignored the dubia cardinals, after all. If he's your Pope, surely you have to submit to him? Or will you finally realise that he's an impostor?<br />sedelondonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13282326776240751174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-76727453966690246802017-09-27T17:35:25.683+01:002017-09-27T17:35:25.683+01:00No fan of Bergoglio, but wasn't his point simp...No fan of Bergoglio, but wasn't his point simply that mortal sin is a matter of internal forum, to use the more 'traditional' terminology. Sin isn't necessarily mortal unless there is full consent of will and full knowledge, and this isn't something that can be determined from the external forum.beadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14769156558523270637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-18408343169335593422017-09-27T17:34:57.831+01:002017-09-27T17:34:57.831+01:00Thank you, Dr. Shaw, for your efforts. Truth will...Thank you, Dr. Shaw, for your efforts. Truth will prevail. <br /><br />In reading comments in various online publications, I encountered some that state that this insignificant document, signed by an insignificant number of insignificant nobodies, has zero chance of being taken seriously by "the Church."<br /><br />And yet, within a matter of, literally, a few hours after dissemination, the document is being reported on and discussed throughout the entire world, including within the Church. Catholics are talking about the document and reacting to it.<br /><br />Quite a feat for a small group of insignificant nobodies.<br /><br />God bless you all.DJRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028761850444888285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-44218031074425159272017-09-27T09:07:39.492+01:002017-09-27T09:07:39.492+01:00Thanks for the advice. Do you understand that we c...Thanks for the advice. Do you understand that we can in an abstract way agree what law is, but in practice may sometimes question how it should be applied if we are to treat people justly. This cannot be an abstract matter, but can only be worked out in the circumstances of human life as it actually is.Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-8801795435928124982017-09-27T08:56:30.654+01:002017-09-27T08:56:30.654+01:00I do course of course agree with Bishop Egan, but ...I do course of course agree with Bishop Egan, but there are some ways of being holy that seem to repel more than they attract. How you go about it is maybe what matters most.<br />In a reading today St. Vincent de Paul says, 'charity takes precedence over any rules.' Some will say it is not true charity if we suggest to people that they need not observe the moral law, because it will all then unravel. Pope Francis, it seems to me, is not wanting to change any rules laid down by his predecessors, but he clearly does think that charity may entail questioning in some cases how they should be applied. There is bound to be some ambiguity resulting from this. Perhaps the question is, can we live with this or does it have to be all or nothing? If we differ on this can we differ charitably? <br />Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-73011080887057050102017-09-27T02:53:58.605+01:002017-09-27T02:53:58.605+01:00Savonarola,
Do you understand the concept of &qu...Savonarola, <br /><br />Do you understand the concept of "law" - in particular divine law - at all, and that of "obligation", which the former connotes? If not, you are wasting your time.<br /><br />In addition to training in jurisprudence, you would probably benefit from training in other areas of philosophy.Albrecht von Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12996637489269911349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-80473896886145427192017-09-26T21:22:26.337+01:002017-09-26T21:22:26.337+01:00To put it another way Savonarola, although we may ...To put it another way Savonarola, although we may think this or that about how the "law" if you like should be applied, according to circumstances, we do need the law itself to be consistent and logical because it is our only dependable guide to the invisible realities of the Faith.<br /><br />If the Church's teachings lose their logical consistency then they can all start to come unraveled. Sadly for some divorced remarried people, their state of life places them at a vital junction between various aspects of the law, right where the rubber meets the road, where humanly we would love to relax the Faith's severity but spiritually we find we can't.<br /><br />I think many people were sympathetic to the idea of trying to change the pastoral practice if it could be squared with the doctrine, but alas the people near Pope Francis don't seem to be able to manage it. They either to "show their working" or admit that it can't be done.<br /><br />As a fairly recent convert myself, I should say that at least some people are drawn to the Faith precisely because it takes these matters seriously.Riddleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18352250581662283650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-76031004470862317572017-09-26T18:09:53.884+01:002017-09-26T18:09:53.884+01:00From its beginning the Church has had to defend it...From its beginning the Church has had to defend itself from heresy - both from within and without. <br /><br />You are mistaken in your assertion that the substance of the case can be reduced to 'strict legalism vs. the spirit of the Gospel'. J Tempesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502654625724522728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-30663240721679090802017-09-26T17:35:27.018+01:002017-09-26T17:35:27.018+01:00Not wishing to get into any debate about whether t...Not wishing to get into any debate about whether the understanding of marriage has changed, you obviously think that Pope Francis has allegedly relaxed the laws on allowing people who are d&r to receive Holy Communion. Now I would agree that human affairs and motives are complex - in fact more often than not. I would suggest they always have been - human nature has not changed from the first century to our present day. But why is he right to change the rules and why were JPII and BXVI wrong to say that the rules could never change? As for your last question, on Sunday Bishop Egan's pastoral suggested precisely that we need to become holy if we are to have any serious chance of evangelizing and "building communion." Would you disagree?Deacon Augustinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03549825303646357455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-38251314132595719902017-09-26T17:09:39.724+01:002017-09-26T17:09:39.724+01:00Indeed what assurance do we have? But I don't ...Indeed what assurance do we have? But I don't think Pope Francis in this case is proposing any change to the understanding of marriage. He is only suggesting that in some cases the Church's laws on who should or should not be allowed to receive holy communion could be relaxed in the face of people's needs, recognising that human affairs and motives are often complex and stigmatising categorisation is not appropriate. Legalists seem to think that if those whom they call adulterous sinners are admitted to communion the whole moral law will collapse. Others, including the Holy Father, do not agree. He might point out that Our Lord had things to say about those who lay heavy burdens on others, but do not lift a finger to help them bear the burdens. At the very least this should indicate that how we apply his teaching is a more complex matter than legalism likes to think and should take account of the vagaries and ambiguities of human affairs. If we just keep ourselves pure and holy, will our religion have much of a future?Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-78023012475011504272017-09-26T16:50:05.768+01:002017-09-26T16:50:05.768+01:00So if the Church could have been so consistently w...So if the Church could have been so consistently wrong on this subject for 2,000 years, what assurance do we have that she has now got it right?Deacon Augustinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03549825303646357455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-59533381898984784382017-09-26T16:15:20.044+01:002017-09-26T16:15:20.044+01:00In some ways no doubt yes. The Church has got many...In some ways no doubt yes. The Church has got many things about God wrong in the course of its history, and its teaching has been by no means as consistent and uniform as some like to think.Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-17716448357348476622017-09-26T13:02:06.182+01:002017-09-26T13:02:06.182+01:00The correction refers to 'the propagation of h...The correction refers to 'the propagation of heresy', and I would not expect it to do otherwise, since nothing less would justify the issuing of such a document. If that is the sincere judgment of individuals who have the appropriate formation to make it, they are doing the right thing and I thank God for their courage. But I do not have that formation, and therefore I don't believe that my playing the social media mob rule game will add any weight to the correction.Mr Grumpyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317128956060393033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-88248622527254467172017-09-26T12:52:17.890+01:002017-09-26T12:52:17.890+01:00So have the last 265 Popes and the whole Church fo...So have the last 265 Popes and the whole Church for the last 2,000 years not been listening to Him properly? Have they missed the point?Deacon Augustinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03549825303646357455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-44622209199665582082017-09-26T11:05:44.706+01:002017-09-26T11:05:44.706+01:00On the contrary, Jesus Christ and His teaching are...On the contrary, Jesus Christ and His teaching are the answer to all our problems - but to know this we do need to listen to Him!Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-43604015733240741552017-09-26T10:30:05.649+01:002017-09-26T10:30:05.649+01:00Your point being that Jesus Christ and His teachin...Your point being that Jesus Christ and His teaching is the problem?Deacon Augustinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03549825303646357455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-8674468021133800912017-09-26T10:16:11.690+01:002017-09-26T10:16:11.690+01:00Always it is easy to identify when one is widely o...Always it is easy to identify when one is widely off track - the adversary will always revert to what I call the position of the schoolyard bully - name calling and the sneer - and we see this in spades by those who have no rational case against the dubia. (And when the name calling and sneer fails the schoolyard bully usually tries fistycuffs - so be alert - watch out! - phase 2 might be upon us soon !)Glendaloughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13274267306916314602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-41890388053304131032017-09-26T10:13:25.962+01:002017-09-26T10:13:25.962+01:00Thank you, Dr. Shaw, for twice proving my point.Thank you, Dr. Shaw, for twice proving my point.Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-37860680434367821732017-09-26T10:07:03.744+01:002017-09-26T10:07:03.744+01:00The spirit of the Gospel: that would be 'If a ...The spirit of the Gospel: that would be 'If a man divorces his wife, and marries another, he commits adultery'.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-15961742687443705792017-09-26T10:06:04.509+01:002017-09-26T10:06:04.509+01:00Not sure why you removed your comment, but the ans...Not sure why you removed your comment, but the answer is simple. People in a state of sin do not 'benefit' from Holy Communion. QEDJoseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-5403874564370518592017-09-26T10:04:46.885+01:002017-09-26T10:04:46.885+01:00Strict legalism vs. the spirit of the Gospel - thi...Strict legalism vs. the spirit of the Gospel - this is the substance of the case. If the former prevails, we may as well drive the last nails into the coffin of our religion.Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30490922.post-56983598315210752402017-09-26T09:59:34.726+01:002017-09-26T09:59:34.726+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.com