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Friday, November 03, 2017
All Saints and All Souls in Oxford and Didcot
I sang in SS Gregory & Augustine in Oxford for All Souls, for the Priest in Charge, Fr John Saward (above), and the following day, for All Souls, in Didcot at the Church of the English Martyrs for the Parish Priest, Fr Phillip Harris. I think the latter was probably the first Traditional Sung Mass in the church since the 'changes'. It was a privilege to be of service to Fr Harris in his bringing the Traditional Mass to his parish and his (enormous) church, one of the great things which Latin Mass Society volunteers can do. Fr Harris celebrates Low Mass in English Martyrs most Wednesday evenings.
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Posted by Joseph Shaw at 10:16 am
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I used to have the idea that elderly people, who can remember from their childhood when Mass was in Latin, might be nostalgic for the old ways. Very often, however, they are not and say how delighted they were when Mass came to be in their own language and they could join the priest around the altar in a westward facing celebration. I have heard them express themselves most vehemently on this theme.ReplyDelete
I know an elderly person who lives near Fr. Saward's church in Oxford, cannot now go very far but can get to that church, and is repelled by his reinstitution of Mass in Latin and eastward facing. Clergy do this without seemingly any consultation of people's wishes or needs. I am happy that those who like the Latin Mass have it available to them, but especially the clergy should be aware that bringing it back will disenfranchise many more people for whom, as for Pope Francis, the changes in liturgy are most welcome and are now irreversible.
Well you can remind your friend that the vast majority of Masses in SS G&A in Oxford are according to the Ordinary Form: 12 out of 13 Sunday Masses a month (in a 4-Sunday month), and 7 out of 9 weekday Masses. There are Holy Day Masses in each Form.Delete
When I have this person't problems, then I might have some sympathy. Until then...
It's not just a question of elderly people, either. I'm 35 and my wife is 34, and we both get a lot more out of the TLM than the Novus Ordo. It's not a question of nostalgia (neither of us grew up with it), it's that we find it more compelling and spiritually helpful.Delete
I'm all for a live-and-let-live approach, but as Dr Shaw says, the overwhelming majority of Masses around the country (nay, the world) are in the Novus Ordo, so we're a million miles away from a situation where people who prefer the newer form are disenfranchised.
No, the elderly for the most part have gone "Kumbaya." It tells us much about the spiritual/doctrinal formation of those generations. They love the kiss of peace, the hand communion, and the chatter in church. There are many of those generations who don't, of course. But that is one of the glories of the traditional movement: it is young and serious and growing. Meanwhile, the geriatric congregations are thinning by the day.Delete
I don't care how you feel. I don't even care how Pope Francis feels about the liturgical changes. The '68ers won't be with us for much longer.Delete
Just for the record: the person I mentioned is housebound most of the time and can only move with some difficulty and help. She can get assistance to help her to a weekday mass at the church, but it is one which is now TLM. She says few of the regular parishioners attend, only people from elsewhere. Live and let live indeed!ReplyDelete
Yesterday I met a lady in her 80s who travelled to the LMS Requiem in Westminster Cathedral from Carlisle. She normally gets to her preferred Form of the Mass once a month.Delete
How much sympathy can you spare for he?
Come to think of it Savoranola you haven't been given the full picture.Delete
This evening Mass is not 'now TLM'. There has never been an OF Mass at that time in the parish. Fr Saward has gone to huge lengths to add the EF to the life of the parish without taking anything away. He is putting on extra Masses which did not exist before. So your reported statement is flatly untrue.
The other thing is that if she is housebound and can get assistance to get to a church in the Woodstock Road in Oxford for a 6pm Mass, presumably in a car, there is a daily OF Mass celebrated at 6pm in the Oxford Oratory. SS Gregory and Augustine is 322 Woodstock Road. The Oratory is 25 Woodstock Road. It is quite literally 5 minutes drive away:
I'm afraid you've been sold a pup.
Forgive me for thinking ill about a situation I do not fully know, but I do not think Savoranola has been "sold a pup" at all. His claim has the tell-tale signs of the liberal campaigner. I think he is an agitator who makes up sob stories like this one to malign the traditional efforts of priests and laity. It smacks of the classical intolerance of liberals: it's their way 100% or they will lie, smear, and manipulate to take from us the little territory we have gained. In my experience (and I have had ample) it's a question of sheer malice.Delete
I wonder if this kind of reaction comes from an assumption of rightness on the part of liberals/reformers.Delete
If you exist in a mental universe in which your side of the argument has been in the ascendant for decades and seems to have won the important arguments, you might be quite relaxed about making concessions which require no sacrifice on your own part.
But compromises which actually disadvantage your own position might seem like offences against the natural order of things.
Interesting how TLM devotees bite back when anyone dares to question provisions made for them which deprive others - and without knowing the full facts of the case.ReplyDelete
I am glad that the 80-year-old lady can get to a Mass of her choosing, but the person I know has to face great difficulties even in getting to the church once a week. She has told me how disappointed she is that the one Mass she can get to is now TLM. I think she deserves some sympathy, but I would not expect to find any on this site.
Bite back indeed... we have Low Mass once a month in Hallam diocese - I know of no parish anywhere in the North where the situation you are describing has happened - the very opposite in fact!Delete
There, Savoranola, you reveal yourself. I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you seem to have no interest in the truth, only making cheap points. I suggest you take you comments elswhere in future.Delete